May 18.10: Chat Room, Game #40 at Braves: Can they score for Johan?

Say what you will about the Mets’ current problems, but at least the team doesn’t quit. That sounds so cliché, but it is true. We’ve seen sloppy play, we’ve seen physical and mental breakdowns, but we haven’t seen a lack of hustle.

No Met has dogged it like the Marlins’ Hanley Ramirez did the other day in Florida. Jason Bay isn’t hitting for power but he busts it every time out of the box. The same can be said for most Mets, and that’s a reflection on the manager.

A manager still has his team when it plays hard for him, and that’s something working for Jerry Manuel.

The Mets snapped their five-game losing streak last night behind Mike Pelfrey and will attempt to win for just the third time in nine games tonight behind Johan Santana against the Braves. Pelfrey gave the Mets 7 2/3 strong innings to become the first starter to win in 16 games.

“Pitching is the key,’’ Manuel said. “If we continue to get this kind of pitching, it at least gives us a chance.’’

Pelfrey pitched big when it counted, limiting the Braves to 1-for-9 with runners in scoring position. He had to, because he didn’t get much help, something Santana is familiar with when the comes to facing the Braves.

Santana (3-2, 3.88 ERA this year) is 1-4 with a 2.05 ERA in seven starts against the Braves. He has received two or fewer runs in each of those starts.

Here’s the line-up behind Santana that needs to improve on those numbers:

Jose Reyes, SS
Luis Castillo, 2B
Chris Carter, LF
David Wright, 3B
Ike Davis, 1B
Rod Barajas, C
Angel Pagan, CF
Jeff Francoeur, RF
Johan Santana, LP

NOTE: I’ve got class tonight and won’t be back until nine.

52 thoughts on “May 18.10: Chat Room, Game #40 at Braves: Can they score for Johan?

  1. our first pick from last year gets the tommy treatment. was this pre-existing or just one of those things?

    with this team you always wonder.

  2. (4) I would but neither team would do that. Reyes has been coming back now that he is in the leadoff spot though despite his 0 for 2 tonight.

  3. i think ramirez is now the better player, but reports of dogging it make me think i would rather have jose.

  4. Just dropping by before “Lost,” then checking out. Maybe Omar should’ve signed Troy Glaus as a free agent…

  5. In honor of your poetry class tonight:

    Hanley has worn out his welcome
    So it seems
    What would it take
    To get him to Queens?

  6. (15) It’s a golden opportunity for the Mets to capitalize on an unworkable situation for Florida and change their own clubhouse in the process. Granted, they’d likely have to give up more than just Reyes, but Hanley would be an upgrade (a significant one offensively) and I don’t know if the Marlins could pick up another shortstop as good as Reyes for him.

  7. Could Wright try choking up on the bat so he could make better contact?

  8. And the Mets crash back into last place with this loss. Not quite like losing the game by hitting into an unassisted triple play like last year but yet another crushing loss. Santana should sue for lack of run support.

  9. A QUICK WRAP/Game #40

    FINAL: Braves 3, Mets 2.
    RECORD: 19-21.
    THUMBNAIL ANALYSIS: Another stellar outing by Johan Santana is wasted.
    ON THE MOUND: Santana gave up two runs on five hits in seven innings. Pedro Felciano took the loss in defeat with considerable help from Jenrry Mejia.
    AT THE PLATE: Ike Davis and Jeff Francoeur homered, but that was it.
    IN THE FIELD: David Wright’s ninth-inning throwing error enabled the winning run to score.
    LOOKING AHEAD: RA Dickey gets the start tomorrow at Washington.-JD

  10. i was reading something today about mejia. it said he is not as good as his numbers suggest. this makes it the third loss attributed to him.

  11. I watched that throw and it was only a little off.
    But I feel the real reason we lost was the pitching its the same 3 night after night.
    They are burnt. I stand by my poll suggestion.
    which is worse: 200 pitches every 6 days or 15-30 pitches a day.
    I was discussing the math with the pitch count and unless you throw a perfect game no pitcher can complete a game with a 100 pitch count. say average pitch thrown to a batter is 5. 5*3 per inning is 15. 15*9 is 135. expecting a pitcher to be able to throw 3 pitches per batter adding to 81 is improbably. and adding 19 more pitches is a drop in the bucket. the count if there;s going to be one should be 150-200. Since people want math this is the math. The pitch count of 100 will only make it so that you need a team of just pitchers just to make sure they arent overused everyday.

  12. (29) Why do you keep insisting that pitch counts are just some arbitrary measurement that preclude your favorite pitchers from throwing complete games? They’re not. There based on studies of arm injuries.

    What’s more, last night’s game was not about pitching — unless you think a staff should give up only two runs per game. Last night’s game was about David Wright failing to bring the go-ahead run in from third base in the ninth inning. I can’t imagine how anyone could watch that same game and come away with the impression that the pitching is “the real reason” for the loss.

  13. you have only named 3 arm injuries. How many of the thousands of pitchers in the game have great ams today. Most of them.
    darling and crew pitched 300 pitches. do you hear them complaining .. no.
    Tiffany you can take the party line. But I will listen to the people that were in the trenches. he they dont agree with the count and have had no ill effects. thats good enough for me.
    This discussion is like a cancer discussion. listen everything gives cancer to mice and rats. everyone has dormant cancer cells. its whether they activate.
    Same things with muscles its predisposition and training and stretching and everything else.
    who gets and doesnt get carpal tunnel syndrome????
    Life wears down bone and muscle its the fact we regenerate some of it that we still have feet and legs.

    Yes wrights throw was a little off. but why so many men on base? werent there walks and bad throws? just curious.

    ok off the soap box.

  14. (31) I keep pointing you in the direction of studies which would illuminate this — and you, instead, bring in the opinion of a fast-pitch softball blogger. As such, do you really — really, now — think I should waste my time by naming more than three pitchers for you?

    I don’t believe you have any interest in _learning_ about this, and that’s what’s most troubling to this discussion. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens has said that it’s important to “understand before disagreeing.” I don’t see that in your approach here.

    Do you have carpal tunnel, Steve?

  15. I almost got Carpal tunnel i was on the verge. I know several that have it.

    However, I do make it a point to understand and I read your report. But doctors say a lot of things with the data they have.. eggs are good for you eggs are bad for you eggs are good for you..
    to name one.

    Doctors can be wrong studies can be wrong.

    I truly believe the percentage of arm injuries to pitchers is not as high as you would think and I honestly believe it isnt the number of pitches but the mechanics of the pitch.

    When I do a demo if my mechanics are off doing one move i get injured. plain and simple. and that IS based on FACT.

  16. I said it can be wrong and there are other variables. but if you want to reduce my answer to that, thats fine its your right.

    So yes what do i win for playing and proving research is wrong?

  17. (35) I think water should boil at 175 degrees. Who says it has to be 212? I like 175 better. And those researchers can’t be right because I’ve heard conflicting reports on eggs. From now on, water boils at 175.

  18. unbelievable. simply unbelievable. I try to discuss/debate an issue based on mechanics and thresholds. and you want to retort with physics?
    physics cannot be changed.
    pitching is based on mechanics to achieve a physical force/reaction. you can’t change physics you can change the mechanics.
    But tell you what if you can get water to boil at a lower temperature please get published.

  19. I have two points on this.

    1) Tiffany time and again refers to these extensive studies that point to throwing above 100 pitches and blowing out the arm. I have yet to see this study. I just hear references to these studies.

    2) In the past years I have seen many color commentators at games – all who were major league pitchers – all of whom say that these pitchers should be able to pitch longer into the game. They give examples of their careers where they are left in to learn to prevail over adversity. Not once have I heard these former pitchers complain about how they were abused and their livelyhood was taken from them by pitching over 100 motions a game.

    So we can have this recurring argument, but other than the personalities on this board, why is it that the pros aren’t complaining?

  20. 38. I stated that a few times as well dave. and tiffany quotes the research.
    see 31. where i mention the pros.

    I dont think this conversation will go anywhere. we are wrong and her research is the gospel.

  21. (38) I provided him the authors of the research, and he came back with the link to the blog of a fast-pitch softball player who doesn’t like pitch counts. How many knuckles go inside his ear?

    Let me ask you this: Before the 1964 Surgeon General report linking smoking and cancer, did smokers know why they were getting cancer — or were they just doing what everyone else was doing and thinking their cancer was just bad luck?

  22. smoking may/can cause/promote cancer. yes absolutely we are agreed. But there are many people that have smoked for 60 years and never got cancer. maybe they arent fully inhaling who knows.

    there are factors for everything.. just because something may promote it doesnt mean it needs to be abolished across the board. that is twice now you have taken the conversation to left field.

    Pitching deals with mechanics. If the mechanics are good and done properly then all is fine. if your mechanics are off then you will injure yourself.
    This goes for dancing skiing etc..
    how much you do something only pertains to how you do that something. if you do it wrong then it will hurt.

    Now its back to you and you will state but the research says.
    the research for pitching and cancer is apples to oranges.

    pitching is the motion of the body , smoking cigarettes is invading your body with a carcinogen . 2 Totally separate issues.

    If I were to follow your arguments then if a throw the ball enough I will get finger cancer..

  23. (42) So, by your logic, smoking isn’t to be avoided because not all people who smoke get cancer?

    That’s essentially the position you’re taking with regard to pitch counts. The same way we know of no reason why some smokers avoid getting cancer, we also know of no reason why some pitchers don’t get arm injuries; but, for the vast majority of smokers and pitchers, we know what the risks are.

    Is your position that you should just smoke and hope you don’t get cancer?

  24. 43. OMGAU I cannot believe you Tiffany. I just explained the difference. one is mechanics. the reason why some pitchers dont get arm injuries is because they have proper mechanics for their body.

    Smoking is a foreign carcinogen invading your body. Just stop now please. This has gotten ludicrous.

    I will no longer discuss pitch counts with you… this has gone from a debate to you wanting to admit victory and that you are right by any means.

    How is smoking anywhere near related to throwing a ball?

  25. (44) But you have NO EVIDENCE to explain “this difference” related to mechanics. This is “Steve from the Delcos Blog’s Theory of What Causes Pitching Injuries.” This and a MetroCard will get you on the subway.

    Smoking and pitching are perfectly analogous for the purposes of this discussion because both have studies showing a link between a certain behavior and a certain outcome, yet in both cases there are unexplained outliers who are seemingly unaffected by this link.

    By advancing your theory (“this difference”) regarding mechanics, you are
    suggesting that there is a way to beat these odds; this is akin to positing a theory (e.g., not inhaling) for beating the odds against cancer. If you can prove this theory, you’ll be so rich you want to have worry about those guys from Tata eating your lunch.

  26. oh and like in a court of law. you brought up the fact that these young arms get injuried. well the above explains it.
    and there endeth the lesson..

    I will not argue the point any more because you will find fault in this well written article by a pitching coach no less. One that you know!

  27. (46) Tell me this: Did the Jacket adhere to pitch counts — or did he follow your theory that good mechanics offset the dangers posed by high pitch counts?

    I await your answer with rabid anticipation.

  28. (47) Steve, I’ll give you a dollar if you can tell me who said this:

    “A pitch count is also extremely important, especially for youth pitchers. Most Little Leagues, and even some high schools and colleges, neglect the pitch count, a tool that has come to prominence recently in the major leagues. A 12-year-old teammate of my son’s once threw an astounding 120 pitches in a game. That type of overuse can be terribly harmful and amounts to physical abuse. Studies have shown a significant relationship between the number of pitches thrown and the risk of injury.”

    Hint: He’s not a regular poster on this blog.

  29. 46

    steve thanks.

    i would infer from this that the year round play of all players – pitchers and position – leads to an increase in injuries.

    as the article says, they never get a chance to let their bodies rest.

  30. 50. Yes. which is different than our major leaguers who may go off to other countries to play. however they are more conditioned one would hope than a 15 year old.
    Any physical activity done over and over will wear you down. but the conditioning and proper movements should build up and help deal with most issues.

    But the 3 key note s overuse being number 3. that even said overuse wasn’t a pitch count but the fact that they played every day etc.
    gee our relievers play everyday dont they.. yet no one worries about that.. ;-)
    a starter gets nearly 6 days…
    well there you have it. games on. gonna go watch it.