METS CHAT ROOM: Game #95; facing the Astros.



Before we get going tonight I hope you’ll take a moment to read an earlier post I had on the need for the Wilpon ownership to speak out on the direction of the team. Feel free to post your comments either there or here.

I believe it is time for some clarity from the top because Omar Minaya isn’t really saying anything.

Meanwhile, as the Mets continue to unravel, the Phillies are reportedly close to landing Roy Halladay from Toronto, which should make them favorites to repeat as champions.

After dropping two of three at Washington, the Mets are in Houston for the weekend, not an easy place for them to play.

Here’s the line-up tonight behind Johan Santana:

Angel Pagan, CF
Luis Castillo, 2B
David Wright, 3B
Jeff Francoeur, RF
Fernando Tatis, LF
Daniel Murphy, 1B
Omir Santos, C
Angel Berroa, SS
Johan Santana, LP

PREGAME NOTES: Billy Wagner could begin a rehab assignment next week. … Gary Sheffield remains day-to-day. It’s been that way for a week and the Mets continue to play shorthanded. … Carlos Beltran’s knee will be re-examined. … Alex Cora’s thumb continues to bother him. … Jon Niese will come up from Triple-A Buffalo to start tomorrow. Niese gave up five runs in 4 2/3 innings in a May 13 start against the Braves.

169 thoughts on “METS CHAT ROOM: Game #95; facing the Astros.

  1. I was looking at some numbers on our farm teams courtesy of

    I see there is a 1b and catcher posting good numbers. They are in AA of course and I do not know what kind of impact if any they will have on this team in the next few years, but it is good to know that some recent draft choices that are position players are moving up the chain.

  2. John,

    I posted a reply on the last thread and agree with what you said.

    It was your best post so far. I am glad you are getting more forceful in criticizing this team.



  3. 4 dave: There was no reason to have ever signed the extra batting practice pitcher in the first place.
    Read today about Maine is likely done for the year? Wonder if he’ll ever regain his ’07 form.

  4. I would not be surprised if Maine comes back this year. It has been several years since he pitched what we would consider well.

    Apparently the Phils will get the best pitcher on the market soon which means the Mets will not win anything for a few years at least.

  5. 6 dave, I agree, but not because the Phillies might get Halladay.
    Next year, who have we got in the rotation behind Santana? Pelfrey, who really isn’t a No. 2, Oliver Perez, who may never get back to being the 15-game winner he was in ’07, then who?

  6. I remember when this guy was a Met and he decided that Queens was the armpit of the world.

    I am so glad we never had a chance to re-sign him.

  7. 10 LOL! Yeah, right. Maybe if Omar’s still GM next year, he’ll grab El Duque, too and sign him to a three-year deal.

  8. 11 Hampton may be a jackass and may have been the recipient of one of the most ludicrous contracts in all of professional sporting history, but still I wish Bobby V had started him in Game 1 of the 2000 WS and used Al Leiter in Game 2.

  9. Before the Mets release Redding they should consider releasing Tatis.
    The human double play machine.

  10. One thing about 2000. I never thought they deserved to be in the WS. I felt they were lucky and got hot at the right time.

    But at least they put it together and played as a team. They went as far as they could go and did as well as expected.

    None of the teams since then have played as well.

  11. 19 dave: I’ve always disagreed with that assessment of the 2000 Mets.
    They won 94 games and had an improved starting rotation from the previous season (five starters in double figures in wins) and were very good offensively even though Robin Ventura had an off-year and Todd Zeile was a downgrade at first from Jon Olerud. Their bullpen was killer — at least on paper — and they had a strong bench and were solid defensively.
    Weird thing was that Derek Bell’s getting jolted from the lineup because of his injury was the best thing that could’ve happened to the Mets, because of Timo Perez’s emergence.

  12. The only thing Tatis does well is that he hustles all the time.
    Redding should go and probably will be gone after the trade deadline.

    The should bring up Kunz at least he may have an upside.

  13. Murphy has been a major disappointment.
    How much blame should Jerry get for the way he has handled him.

  14. 25 Tatis is hustling all the time because he’s trying to beat relay throws to first as he’s grounding into DPs.

  15. On the major league roster (including DL), only Wright, Santana, Beltran, K-Rod and Pelfrey are who I would keep. I’d listen for offers to anybody else.-JD

  16. 26 Murphy’s slide isn’t Manuel’s fault. Hell, Manuel handed him the left field job on the second day of spring training. He got the nod at first when Delgado got hurt. Murphy’s had plenty of opportunities.
    Instead of being the second coming of Don Mattingly, as Manuel and Omar were so eager to proclaim him, he’s more like the seond coming of Super Joe Charboneau.

  17. John,

    In a follow up to your previous posting regarding the current state of the Mets, Omar has consistently brought in injury prone players. So the team cannot say that injuries are the cause of this teams woes.

    Redding was known by the team to have an injury before they signed him while Santana and Maine both had surgeries. That is 3/5 of your rotation for the year with potential problems. Not a good way to walk into the season.

    The past few years it was Alou, also Pedro, etc. Omar has a history of banking on the positive in building each team.

    The excuse that we got hit hard with injuries does not wash. We have been hit hard by injuries for the past 3 years. All are teams that Omar built each year.

    Terrible judgement is just one of the many reasons why the team needs to cut the cord with the head of the team.

    And then there was the decision to resign Ollie over the other options and Left Field and..

  18. Since the Mets lack depth at the AA and AAA level.
    Should the Mets trade Feleciano for a couple of minor league players who at best would be role players on the ML level but could help the
    teams next year in the minors have better records.

  19. 28 If I’m an opposing GM, JD, I wouldn’t give a box of Krispy Kremes and a gift cert to Best Buy for the other Mets on the current roster.

  20. 30 dave: don’t forget, the team also knew about Guillermo Mota’s steroid use and signed him to a two-year deal, anyway; it also knew about Delgado’s hip trouble as early as ’07, the same season it knew about Castillo’s knees before trading for him (and then re-signing him for four more years).

  21. 26/29

    Jerry has been a major reason for his problems. But so has the GM. In the offseason they had him play 2b. If he was to play the OF, that is where he should have been in winter ball.

    It is not as though he has played OF for years. And then there was the yanking of him early in the season for the walking wounded.

    All were meant to make him comfortable and relaxed. They were meant to show what his role was on the team.

  22. Oh yeah.

    The coach did similar things to the RF before they kicked him out of NY.

    I am not saying these two players do not share blame for their season, but the team has not exactly supported their corner OF’s.

  23. The truth is they should have started to rebuild after the collapse of 2007.

    If they had not gotten Santana things would have been different.

  24. 38 Annie: Why would the Wilpons say anything? They’re too busy counting the money they’ve been making from opening a new ballpark and the added merchandise sales and TV revenue.
    What would they say, anyway?
    “We feel your pain”?
    “We’re sorry the team sucks”?

  25. 37 Dave
    He actually did not play much 2B in the Arizona Fall league. He got hurt and went home and worked on being an OF.
    Somehow he got worse this season then last season.

  26. 40 Scott: I’ll go one better — they should’ve started reloading after 2006.
    In retrospect, they should’ve gotten a healthy, legitimate everyday left fielder after not re-signing Cliff Floyd instead of looking backward and signing Moises Alou.
    They should’ve held on to Darren Oliver and Chad Bradford and not signed Scott Schoeneweis to a ridiculous contract.
    They also should’ve added another established starting pitcher and a setup reliever, too.

  27. Annie,


    Fred has made an announcement that the team will make a major deal before the trade deadline to strengthen the current team and that they will do a top to bottom evaluation of the whole organization to determine the state of the team and identify what their structural weaknesses are.

    They will take decisive steps to make the kids in Flushing the cream of MLB for next year and the years to come.

    He vows to give a regular status of the state of the team to the fans because they deserve no less.

  28. 41 Annie: Now THAT would be funny to watch. Maybe they should’ve had Tony Bernazard at a press conference leaping before the cameras, foaming at the mouth and ripping off his shirt and challenging reporters to a fight.

  29. Annie
    I would love to hear what Fred and Jeff have to say.
    Problem is what ever they would say would be mocked and ridiculed.
    What would that get them.

    As I said earlier.
    Mets need to hire a top PR firm.
    Someone like Howard Rubinstein who works for the Yankees.

    They need to learn how to work the media better.

    Omar’s press conference in Washington was badly
    handled. A good PR firm would never let that happen.

  30. What the hell was THAT?
    Just throw the damn ball to first when you field it.

  31. Gil
    The funny thing is Bradford would fit right in on this years team. He has spent almost the whole year on the DL.

  32. 47 OK, Scott, but how does even the best PR firm polish the turd that is the Mets 2009 season?

  33. 49 Yeah, but Bradford did well in ’07. Exorcising Aaron Heilman (though the Mets not winning the ’06 pennant wasn’t entirely his fault) wouldn’t have been a bad idea, either. And the Mets also could’ve shopped for an everyday second baseman after ’06, gambling on the side of having caught lightning in a bottle with Jose Valentin.

  34. Scott (47) Thanks for understanding that there is a problem, and there is a solution – people who care about the Mets wouldn’t mock and ridicule the Wilpons.

    If you are reading and talking to the people that I am, they don’t think this is a joke.

    PR would be an excellent place to start – Jay has been here since the beginning of time…

  35. Scott(43)

    I know. But the point is if they were to play him at 2b, then put him there.

    He was never known as a defensive wiz to begin with. You work on your weaknesses not ignore them.

  36. 53

    They deserve to be mocked.

    They created this team and allowed this to happen.

  37. 53 Annie, come on. You’re saying that people who care about the Mets DON’T mock the inept ownership?
    We mock them precisely because we DO care.
    If we don’t assail such a rotten ownership we’ve either got our heads buried in the sand or are indifferent about the Mets.
    All of us following this team have made a commitment and a sacrifice in one or more of the following departments: money, time or energy. And we are demanding value for that sacrifice.
    Is that so unreasonable?
    I’m not saying the Mets should win every game. But dammit, I AM saying as paying fans we deserve a quality and entertaining product. And when the stars are hurt, how about a decent Minor League pool to draw from to provide decent players to take their places.

  38. 53 Annie
    I believe you when you say you know many people who would take what Fred & Jeff have to say seriously.
    I know many who feel the same way.

    The thing is right now the Daily News and sports talk would not treat them fairly at this moment.

    Also sorry for that tastless comment earlier.

  39. Scott (63) Thanks – these are unsettling times for those who love the game – and the Mets.

  40. 63 But Scott, the Mets haven’t exactly treated us, the fans, fairly either, have they?
    They raise ticket prices at their new stadium to levels that are unaffordable to many fans, their media relations staff provides reporters with inaccuracies about the degree of injuries to players, which filters down to us.
    Most of all, management has assembled a mediocre product, which it demands we pay through the nose for.

  41. 62 Gil
    No team could possibly replace three players of the quality of Reyes, Beltran and Delgado.

    How good do you think the Yankees would be without Jeter and Texeria.

    and if the Red Sox lost Varitek like they did a few years ago. They would not be making the playoffs.

  42. As I said on the other thread, the only thing I want to hear from the Wilpons is, “We’re selling the team at a loss.”

  43. 66 Gil
    That is where a good PR firm could help.
    As bad a the product on the field is right now.
    The Mets mishandled many off field issues this year.
    Ticket prices , how they handled partial plan season ticket holders, the lack of Mets identity in the new park.
    and I am sure many other things.
    If the Mets did not have such a tin ear with these things a bad season on the field could be forgiven.

  44. 67 Scott, that’s a fair comment.
    But if Mets management had been honest with itself and the fans, it would’ve realized that it needed to prepare for the worst case scenario, that these guys might not be healthy enough to return this year — which may indeed be the case — and realize that its farm system can’t produce quality replacements, so you go out and acquire Major League talent to compensate.
    The Mets have not done that now for several years.
    Signing the historically injury-prone Moises Alou wasn’t unwise enough, so when he went down in 2007, the team replaced him with a platoon of an unready Carlos Gomez and career journeyman Ricky Ledee.
    When Delgado’s hip starting acting up in 2007, Minaya made no backup plan for his loss — except trading away the orgnization’s best first base prospect in Mike Carp.

  45. Here we go again. We can’t catch the ball in left, we can’t catch the ball at first…

  46. Unbelievable…I get up to go to the bathroom and here we are again making more defensive miscues…

  47. 70 Gil
    The Mets could have made trades.
    The have some prospects that are good.
    Did you want them to overpay.
    Would you have traded F-Mart to get Huff or Nick Johnson.

    If the Mets had spent a little more this offseason on Dunn , Burrel or Abreu.
    That would have solved some of the so called depth problem.

    One day it is going to come out that the Wilpons took money from the Mets to cover some of their real estate problems.

  48. JD
    You said earlier Jay could not stop Omar from what he was going to say.
    To me that is a problem that needs to be corrected.

  49. 67 Scott: There have been plenty of teams over the years that had much less of a payroll than the Mets — in smaller markets — that have outperformed the Mets in recent years.
    This year, the Seattle Mariners — the team which pawned damaged goods reliever J.J. Putz on us — are seven games over .500 and are in contention for a Wild Card spot, as are the San Francisco Giants.

  50. Annie (80): Always liked Francoeur. When it is over, the Mets will have won that deal. Church was as good as he was going to get.-JD

  51. 70 Scott, according to whoever at the Mets leaked that false rumor about them having four prospects to string together to acquire Roy Halladay, they likely could’ve had Nick Johnson for far less than F-Mart.
    But here’s another question about what passes for Mets management: Why build a ballpark whose dimensions are so big, they’re detrimental to your club’s ability to hit home runs?
    If you’re trying to lose weight, do you design a diet built on junk food?

  52. 78 Gil
    and how bad were the Mariners last year
    with a very big payroll.
    That is why their is hope that with good health
    and a few good player moves the Mets could be back playing for the post season next year.

  53. John (84) I read a lot about him when the trade was made – he’s young and talented but had outlived the hometown crowd in Atlanta — I think he will do well in NY.

  54. 82 According to Steve Phillips’s comments the other day, the Citi Field bathroom attendants practically have as much influence in Mets management decisions as the team’s comptroller…

  55. Gil (85): I think the Mets lack of power in connection with Citi Field is a bit of a misnomer. Add Delgado, Beltran and a normal season from Wright and the power numbers might be a little different. There are other factors other than the dimension of the park. Other teams seem to be hitting homers at Citi Field.-JD

  56. Gil(85)

    If you consider yourself pitching heavy you want to play good D and have good pitching. If you have power you can it home runs. If you have professional hitters you can hit doubles in the gap.

    However, the Mets are none of the above.

    It’s not the stadium, it’s the team.

    Why is it that other teams hit home runs in the stadium that we are unable to?

  57. 85 Gil
    The Nats might not have asked for F-Mart but how much is Johnson a player who always is injured and has 5 HRs the same as Murphy really worth.

  58. As bad as the Mets have hit this season, had they pitched according to expectations, they’d be over .500 and in contention.-JD

  59. 87 Annie: Francouer is already doing well. he’s already driven in nearly half the number of runs Church did for the Mets this year.
    86 Scott: How can the Mets compete next year with one excellent starting pitcher, followed by an average one, followed by three question marks? The Mets won’t bring Brian Schneider back next year, so is Omir Santos good enough to be the everyday catcher? What about second base? This is about as good as Luis Castillo’s going to be in this stage of his career and it’s OK at best. Can Carlos Delgado be next season — assuming the Mets re-sign him — be the Carlos Delgado of the second half of last year? The Mets won’t bring Billy Wagner back next year either and Putz might not regain his form, so who’s your bridge between the starters and K-Rod? There are so many holes on this club heading toward next year…

  60. Scott (92): Good point. No way I’d give F-Mart for Nick Johnson. Adam Dunn? Maybe. I’m sorry, I like Dunn’s power and I don’t know how good Martinez is going to be.-JD

  61. Santos has now had 5 HRs this year – same number as Wright, isn’t it?

  62. 91 Actually, JD, I know where Phillips is coming from because I once worked for a company structured exactly as Phillips described, where there’s no chain of command, people are often out of the loop, undermined and uninformed and it contributes to bad morale.
    As for stadium dimensions, Jeff Wilpon (unfortunately, as it’s his right as COO) made a unilateral decision as to what they’d be, without consulting any players or other baseball professionals, or stadium architects.
    As for the very good questions about why other teams can hit homers in Citi Field and we don’t? Like you guys, I’m stumped.

  63. 5 runs & 11 hits thru 5 innings…… one will ever convince me that Johan Santana is an ace.

  64. Jon(93)

    Sorry. Not sure what expectations you are thinking of.

    I didn’t think Ollie would pitch like a low A ball pitcher, but I did expect him to win 10 games. Not exactly killing anyone, but not what you want from your #3.

    As I write this our starting catcher for next year shows some pop.

  65. 94 Gil
    I know their are lots of holes going into next year.

    The worst thing to do right now is panic and make a stupid trade.

    This part of where the Mets screw up.
    Admit they are playing for next year.
    Play the kids and find out what they have.

    And run some promtions at Citi-Field
    2 for 1 hot dogs, discounts on team mechandise,
    and how about telling season ticket holders if they renew they will give them a discount.

    This is what PR guys get paid to do.

  66. And the manager does not wait for the pitcher to lose the game before replacing him. Interesting no?

    Is that the way you are supposed to manage?

  67. dave (103): Perez, Maine and Pelfrey were all expected to be better than they’ve performed. Had they done so, they’d be a better team.-JD

  68. 105 JD
    The Cardinals because of the guys in the dugout.

    Both LaRussa and Duncan are FA’s after the season.

    Not sure LaRussa wants to manage in NY but for
    a nice contract Duncan might come to NY to be pitching coach.

  69. 105,

    I dont really know those teams, but I just looked up the stats and like the Cards. Good pitching and they just got an extra hitter.

    I don’t like Manny, so that is a negative for LA.

  70. John(108)


    I expected Pelf to build on last year, but Maine had surgery and Ollie is well Ollie. I agree that I didn’t think they would be this bad, but with essentially the same rotation and a vastly improved bullpen did not instill me with great confidence that the pitching would not collapse yet again.

  71. 106 Scott, I like your ideas. But I can’t see the Mets compounding their stupidity — er, strike that. I mean, I can’t believe after all that’s happened this year, they’d make a dumb, rash trade and mortgage the future for thsi lost season.
    Dodgers, with their young pitchers (Billingsley, Kershaw, Broxton) and young hitters (Kemp, Loney, Martin), are the NL’s best team. It’s been in the making for four years.
    Who says a big market team can’t invest in its farm system and develop young players?

  72. 106/114

    Did I not read somewhere today where the Mets are on record as being buyers and not sellers this year?

  73. 114 Minaya can say he’s a seller all he wants, but the rest of baseball’s GMs laugh at him for saying so.

  74. Since Louis is showcasing his hitting skills this week, can we get a really good young pitcher for him? Perhaps we could interest someone in Ollie too?

  75. 114 dave: you’re right about the team being the Mets — if you think back to 1980. The Dodgers are kinda like the 86 Mets — loads of young talent (especially on the pitching staff) with some established vets coming from other teams like Hudson, Furcal and a masher in left busted for using fertility drugs to help him rake.

  76. 118 dave, are you accusing Castillo of pulling a Tony Fernandez circa 1992? :)

  77. What the hell is Razor Shines smoking to have sent Francouer home? He was out by 15 feet.

  78. 122 dave: I got the season wrong, but it was 1993. Tony Fernandez played with the Mets as if he had no interest in baseball.
    So he hits .225 with the Mets.
    But when trade rumors began circulating that he might be traded to a contender, he suddenly started playing better…
    Then the Mets traded him to the Blue Jays, where he went on to hit .306 the rest of the year, with an .803 OPS and won a World Series ring.

  79. When the make the 2009 Mets season video, the title should be in honor of Casey
    “Can’t anyone here play this game”

  80. getting back to our favorite subject, when is Cora getting back and why can the team not bring up a shortstop that can make a routine play?

  81. 132 Actually, Scott, Stengel said, “Can’t anyone play this here game.” It was bastardized by a sportswriter to make it sound more literary.

  82. 128


    I also remember we had a no hit shortstop with a great glove who we eventually cut or traded or something.

    He went to the cards who sent him down.

    He then went on to hit 300 for them for several years.

    Not saying Oquendo tanked it like your example, but I was not happy.

  83. A famous NY Times scribe once said that the best writing in their paper was on the Sports Page….

  84. 135 LOL! If there was an all-time, all-hothead team, Bernazard could be its GM.
    You could have a pitching staff of Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Dennis Cook, Roger Clemens, Francisco Cordero, Joaquin Andujar, Rob Dibble, Mario Soto and Carlos Zambrano.
    Michael Barrett and A.J. Pierzynski could catch.
    Other suggestions? Milton Bradley in the outfield?
    That Minor League manager who threw that on-field tantrum in which he acted is if he were fighting in the trenches and lobbing greandes?

  85. So since the catcher is the best power hitter playing, does this mean he will bat cleanup tomorrow?

    Wright looks more and more like one of those guys who needs a man to shoulder the burden of carrying the team. He has yet to come through when the chips are down.

  86. 134 Gil
    good to know if Carlin ever stops me and I end up on Beer Money

  87. 142 Just gimme a fair cut if you go on the show, you get that question right and win, Scott!

  88. Never heard Keith and Gary sound so disgusted. When Berroa popped up the first bunt attempt, Keith says “It would now behoove him to lay one down” and Gary says “Come on! He’s got to show SOMETHING!”

  89. 145 Yeah, but they sure sucked up good to Omar the other night when they had him on, instead of giving him the grilling he’s practically begging for.

  90. Berroa is awful. This guy doesn’t even belong in AAA…how the hell did he ever win ROY?? He’s horrendous

  91. 108 JD, I didnt expect much from Ollie, anyway. Pelf, The Jacket was right. He pitched too many innings last year, and this year he is paying for it. Its something Verducci at SI has written about for years. Maine? I thought it was just cleaning out a bone spur. Thats what we were told. I think you can add Johan to the list of underachiever the last couple of months too. What a mess.

  92. 154 Dave
    Murphy never played 1b before this year on any professional level. I am impressed.
    Now he needs to hit more to stick around.

  93. 153 dave: they could’ve at least asked him a couple of tough questions, or have at least couched it by saying, “Y’know, Omar, there are a lot of disgruntled Mets fans out there right now. If you could directly speak to them, what would you say?”

  94. 155 Needs to hit a LOT more. A .240 average and 5 HRs ain’t gonna cut it.

  95. he needs to raise his avg a lot and get some power. he cant play first without it and will never be a starter if he cant hit it out.

    defense is not his thing.

  96. Murphy has no future on this team. They grossly underestimated him. He can’t hit his way out of a paper bag yet he can field well at 1B (the total opposite of what the team thought of him).

    BTW…Tatis is an awful hitter.

  97. Howie has put this game ‘in the books’ the Mets – and Santana – showed some life, but not enough to hold off the Astros. Maybe tomorrow….

    See you then.

  98. Next time Santana wants to huff and puff about getting no support, he should look at himself in the mirror. He flat out sucked it up today and in essence,lost this game. He’s paid to win games when the team scores 4 runs…and when you give up an HR to the other team’s pitcher (I don’t care who he is) you deserve to lose

  99. 7 games below .500, and sinking fast. With all those great food vendors at Citi, it should be easy to stick a fork in it. But they’re in Houston.

  100. As presently constituted, I can’t see this team winning 20 more games this season. And with a rookie going tomorrow our supposed “ace” throws this clunker of a game. This team STINKS! I am so disgusted.

  101. I’m reposting this now, even though it’s only July. Two months to go…

    Jeff M. April 26, 2009 4:04 pm

    I can predict, without any doubt, that the Mets will not have an end-of-season meltdown this year — because they will already be out of the race. However, instead they will have an end-of-season rally, and start winning (and teasing us) when it’s already too late. Mark my words; come back to this April 26 post in September and see if this wasn’t true.

  102. Don’t worry, if the Phillies get Doc Holliday the Mets won’t be sniffing first place for the next few years and with a bad farm system the Mets won’t be sniffing the playoffs for the next 5-10 years. According to baseball people the Phillies have a deep farm system. I would love to know who the scouts are for the Mets because they should be dangled off the George Washington Bridge. The Mets are now the Knicks, congratulations Fred Wilpon you old fool. The only way the Mets organization will ever be respectable is when the Wilpons sell the Mets which is highly unlikely so get use to it.