METS CHAT ROOM: Game #92; Finally, a team with even more troubles.



According to reports, GM Omar Minaya and manager Jerry Manuel will get a pass on the season, presumably because of the number and severity of the Mets’ injuries.

That’s now, and things could change if they lose 20 in a row or some other unfathomable number.

Of course, the last time such a conversation circulated about the Mets Willie Randolph was fired, so, who really knows?

The offensively challenged Mets have lost 14 of their last 20 games, and nine times in that span they’ve scored no more than one run.

They are in Washington tonight against the Nationals, who have lost 10 of their last 11. If the Mets are to get on a little run, it has to start tonight. Nine games behind the Phillies, and 10 in the loss column, the Mets have nowhere to go but up.

Technically, that’s not true, but you get the idea.

“Where do we go from here?’’ Manuel said. “We have to sit down and make some decisions. We talked about that today. We feel like we still can get some things done.’’

What those things are, he wouldn’t say, but they’ll have to be accomplished without Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes, both whom remain without a return timetable.

The Mets will go tonight with Livan Hernandez, who is 2-0 with a microscopic 0.56 ERA this year against the Nationals. However, once 5-1, Hernandez has lost his last four starts and is winless since June 7.

He has given up 15 runs on 21 hits with eight walks in his last two games, totaling just seven innings.

The Mets will be without Gary Sheffield again tonight, and will go with this line-up:

Angel Pagan, CF
Luis Castillo, 2B
Daniel Murphy, 1B
David Wright, 3B
Jeff Francoeur, RF
Jeremy Reed, LF
Alex Cora, SS
Brian Schneider, C
Livan Hernandez, RP

72 thoughts on “METS CHAT ROOM: Game #92; Finally, a team with even more troubles.

  1. Hi John – It must be because Howie is back.
    He’s also saying that Jerry Manuel and Omar Minaya have been told that they will be back next year. Eddie Coleman will be talking with Omar later during the game to get more information.

  2. so the mets are beating up on a team more woeful than they are.


    niese should come up. redding is completely useless.

  3. do the mets have any decent managers in their system or will it be the old coaching carousel?

  4. I’m not watching tonight — tempting as it might be to witness the Mets debut of Cory Sullivan — but MLB Network just aired this breaking news item:
    The Mets have declined a Blue Jays trade proposal in which the Mets would send Fernando Martinez, Jon Niese, Ruben Tejada and Bobby Parnell for Roy Halladay.

  5. Gil (9) Frankly, I’m pretty excited about the game at hand – I’ll wait until Eddie talks to Omar about all these business issues later in the game.

  6. Annie, you’re excited about our very unwatchable team a meaningless game against the worst team in baseball?
    Well…what can I say other than I hope you enjoy it.
    The Mets aren’t going anywhere this season, so the trade wouldn’t have made any sense from the Mets perspective.
    But it benefits both teams to have that news “leak” out.
    For Omar Minaya, he gets to signal to disenchanted Mets fans that he’s open to the idea of importing a superstar and gives the impression that he hasn’t given up on this season.
    For the Blue Jays, the news allows them to publicly show contending teams what type of package they’re looking for in return for Halladay.
    Now if the Blue Jays were to include outfielder Alex Rios in the deal and send a hefty sum of cash to cover some of the money involved in the contracts, well then that might make more sense…

  7. Gil (9): Mets haven’t confirmed anything. If true, and I’m not saying it is, I would do it. However, it wouldn’t make a difference this year. What it would do is entice other free agents. … The Mets would have to sign Halladay to a long term deal before making that deal.-JD

  8. i mean really. what kind of talent do we have in AAA or AA?

    Niese is one of one or two players you could say may be useful this year.

    That is it. For a team that is as pathetic as this one it says a lot that no help is available.

    We helped our rotation by bringing up a player who could not dominate AA or A ball hitters. We have a desperate need for hitters who can play the OF or 1B. I don’t see any help there.

    We have a career backup starting at short stop with a partial tear in his finger and yet we have nothing useful that can keep him from playing every day.

    Oh yes, we are still signing garbage in the hope that they can help. That is our farm system. Garbage. We brought up sheffield from our tigers minor league system and he is this years version of Cliff Floyd.

    Half our team is on the IR and when they land there, it is never what it seems.

    The organization is a joke. I bet the Phils can’t stop laughing at us.

  9. 15 Just like the Mets don’t confirm or deny anything relating to anything important…but MLB Network just spent the last 15 minutes discussing the Blue Jays’ proposal, including commentary from former Cleveland and Texas GM John Hart, saying if he were Minaya, he wouldn’t make the move.
    I wouldn’t either.
    Halladay as good as he is, is not going to be the savior of a fourth-place club, which is what the Mets are now and will be by season’s end.
    Plus, J.P. Riccardi has publicly said he’s not giving other teams a window to negotiate an extension with Halladay before he’s traded.
    And even if Halladay is a Met next year, how does he fit in as far as filling holes in the setup reliever, first base, left field, catcher and second base spots?
    He’s too costly — in both minor league talent and in payroll money.
    Adding Halladay would be like having the unfortunate circumstance of living in a housing project or trailer park and surviving on public asistance and going out and buying a Bentley.

  10. John(15)

    I would have to agree. It is a steep price in that it pretty much guts what we have left. But he is a good pitcher and having Johan and him at the top with Mike as #3 gives us a nice rotation. It pushes Ollie to #5 which is about where he should be anyway.

    We would have to go out and get another pitcher as I do not see John as helping us much.

    Of course we would also need a LF, a catcher, a 1B and more pen help, but it’s a start.

  11. This talk of the Mets being buyers or sellers. They really don’t have anybody. A team could use Alex Cora or Jeremy Reed, but the Mets don’t have anybody to replace them for the rest of this season. They aren’t going to do anything of substance.-JD

  12. Another thing: Even if the Mets got Halladay and he and Johan next year combined for 40 wins, where do the other 42 needed to be at least one game above .500 going to come from?
    Does anyone believe John Maine (if he ever can get fully healthy), Oliver Perez (if he can ever get his act together) and a fifth starter to be named later can come up with 42 wins between them?
    And isn’t it already excruciating enough to not have the offense to consistently support one ace, let alone two?

  13. 20

    I would sell them if we can get some useful talent in AA or AAA.

    This season is toast anyway. No move we do will salvage the season. Bring up Niese so he can get bombed. I heard someone say something about Figueroa. Don’t know him, but if he is a good young pitcher, bring him up too.

  14. 23 That would be the same Figueroa you know — Nelson. He’s won six games at AAA. I’d bring him now to replace Redding as the long man. As for Niese, with you correctly noting that this season is toast, let him sink or swim now, to see if he might be a part of next year’s rotation.

  15. Gil (18) I really prefer to pay attention to the game at hand rather than all this trade talk –

  16. Annie, no one is stopping you from paying attention to this game.
    But this chat board is a democracy and at least two others and the moderator are engaging in the trade talk.
    Those of us who are realize that tonight’s game, as entertaining as you and others may find it, is, in the big picture, meaningless.

  17. thanks gil.

    so nelson aint the answer, but if we make that proposed trade we will need arms.

  18. 27 Exactly, dave. If the Jays were willing to part with Rios in the deal, at least that would be another hole (left field) we could fill. Maybe adding their second baseman, Aaron Hill would sweeten things…

  19. Delcos: You are right on. Of course you’d make the move. you give up unknown times 4 and maybe one makes it big for a guy who can do something unique, pitch a complete game. You have a one/two for next year that can’t be matched in the NL East with Wright/Reyes/Beltran ready to go. Only a moron, say that’s you traitor, would not make the move, and no matter how long your overhyooped overpaid friends on mlb station are its bull.. Omar wouild have made the move and so would all the GMs. Its bull. Just like traitors are, Benedict Arnold Gil.

  20. Heard that the Blue Jays also want to move another outfielder, Vernon Wells and were rumored to be asking other teams to take on him and his contract as part of any deal involving Halladay…

  21. Gil (26): Of all the guys listed, the one I would be most reluctant to part with would be Parnell because of his potential upside. To get Halladay, they would have to give up Niese and Martinez. … But, if the Jays don’t give a team a window to negotiate with Halladay, then there would be no deal with anybody. That stance says they really don’t have an interest in dealing him.-JD

  22. Well I would be sellers of almost anyone someone wanted.

    Castillo, Schneider, Santos, Ollie, Hernandez, most of the pen, Cora, our outfield, etc.

    I like Parnell and would trade him only if it got something significant. This team needs to be gutted anyway, might as well start this year and get something back or shed salary.

  23. 31 I agree on Parnell, JD. But Fernando Martinez is a baseball infant at 20 — no telling what he might be able to accomplish in his career.
    Niese I could easily part with, as I could Tejada, who’s blocked at short by Jose Reyes.
    Which begs this question: Why aren’t the Mets trying to convert their other top SS prospect, Wilmer Flores, to second base?

  24. 33 dave, if you were another team’s GM, would you really want ANY of the Mets you mentioned? If you were an opposing team’s scout, do ANY of the current Mets impress you enough to give up anything of value for?

  25. Gil (34): There’s still time for that. He’s still several years away. There’s no telling what would be going on with Reyes by then. Maybe they’ll trade him or he’ll leave as a free agent. … Another thing, shortstops are more valuable and if they opt to deal Flores they might get more for him as a shortstop.-JD

  26. dave (33): All those guys you mentioned might be of value to a contender as bench depth. I don’t think they’d net anything substantial. It would be intriguing to unload Perez. It would be a gamble because of his potential, but we’ve been hearing that for three years now.-JD

  27. 36 I wouldnt give up on Reyes any faster than I’d give up on David Wright. Reyes has had the misfortune of getting hurt and having a lost season and Wright is having as much of an off-year as possible for anyone to have and still hit over .300.
    It may be true, you could get more in a deal if you want to move Flores as a SS, but it would also inspire some Minor League competition between Reese Havens and Flores if Flores is converted to 2B.

  28. 37 JD, are you kidding?
    Which club in its right mind would take on Perez’s contract — and his inconsistency? Schneider? He can’t hit his way out of a paper bag and his defense isn’t good enough to justify his weak bat. Castillo? Come on. His best days are long behind him.

  29. Gil (38): The Mets are deep at shortstop in the lower levels. That’s one of the reasons I would entertain dealing Reyes if I could break the bank for him. … His injury clouds the evaluation of him. The Mets have to decide if Reyes may have peaked. That would be a difficult decision. But, you could fill a lot of holes by dealing him.-JD

  30. Gil (39): Probably none, but I would see what interest I might get. It doesn’t hurt to make him available and see who bites. … The point is, you won’t get a lot, but they could help a contender. With the way Castillo is playing, you never know. A desperate team might go for it. Besides that, there are dumb GMs out there so you never know.-JD

  31. Remember this, nobody ever thought Minaya would get anything for Guillermo Mota. In hindsight, they didn’t, but they did move him.-JD

  32. I don’t think Reyes has peaked. He’ll likely be back with a vengeance next season.
    But knowing the Mets brass’s penchant for rushing back hurt players, I’m fearful that it’ll rush Reyes back to the frontlines next month when all reasonable observers can see the war can’t be won this year.

  33. 41 Unfortunately, arguably the dumbest GM — the Nationals’ Jim Bowden — is long gone. By the way, the Mariners have sure come out pretty good on that J.J. Putz three-way trade, haven’t they?

  34. Gil (43): They fall much further back, I might be inclined to shut down both Reyes and Beltran for the remainder of the year. If the season is lost, what’s the point of pushing them. Let them heal.-JD

  35. 35


    we had this discussion before. you never know. i realize most are garbage, but both catchers are useful. ollie if he strings a game or two together becomes interesting, our outfielders:pagan, reed, sheff all have their uses, castillo is a 280 hitter who has some speed.

    so yes. however, i dont see any of them with much future on this club.

  36. 46 I wholeheartedly agree.
    Shut them down for this year. But the Mets front office may feel so desperate when TV ratings, attendance and interest dip, that they may foolishly rush them back.
    When lately has the Mets front office seen the big picture?
    Not Omar Minaya with his signing Moises Alou and El Duque to two-year deals, Castillo to a four-year one and gambling on a left field platoon of an unproven player in Daniel Murphy and one who had a feel-good comeback the previous year?

  37. john(37)

    i am not suggesting that any of these players is an impact player, but all teams have weaknesses that could use help.

  38. Suppose some second baseman for a contender blows out a knee. You don’t think Castillo might be of interest? Of course he would. If the Mets agree to eat part of the contract, it could work. It has been a good year for him, but I’m not betting this kind of season for the next two years.-JD

  39. john(40)

    yes. that is the million dollar question. it takes guts to make that kind of decision. guts our gm does not possess.

  40. 47 dave: Castillo has a ridiculous contract in dollars and length, which no other team would want to take on, so the Mets would have to eat for any team to take him off their hands.
    And if the Mets won’t even eat Tim Redding’s contract, you think Jeff Wilpon’s gonna pay a player to play for another team?
    Gary Sheffield is a 40-year-old with a bad hammy.
    Jeremy Reed is the epitome of mediocrity. Schneider is only a slight upgrade over the legendary Paul Bako.
    I’d hang on to Omir Santos and Angel Pagan as they’re both relatively young and could help the club next year and possibly beyond.

  41. 55 good point, dave. Can we hire Jeff Giloolly to go Nancy Kerrigan again on a contending team’s second baseman’s knee?

  42. dave (49): I agree. If there’s even a slight chance of dealing Castillo, I’d have to explore it. I’d pay one of the two remaining years if it meant making a trade. I know the Mets don’t like eating contracts, but it doesn’t hurt to try.-JD

  43. castillo is good insurance at 2b, or even an upgrde at the plate for some.

    sheffield has power. or at least more than anyone left on this team. power always is interesting.

    reed is defense as is pagan. Schneider can handle the catching duty and is a more consistent option than some young player going into the postseason.

    as john says above. all role players, but contending teams need role players.

  44. OK, JD and dave. You make many valid arguments. But two things:
    1)You’d still have to do a helluva sell job to another team’s GM to move the guys you’re talking about.
    2)Do you guys really see any value in any prospects we could acquire for the guys you mentioned? Think back to other lost seasons — ’02, ’03 and ’04 when we moved a bunch of veterans to contending teams. Did we ever get anyone else besides Pedro Feliciano (’02 in the Shawn Estes to the Reds deal) who ever helped in the long term? Only other player I can think of is Victor Diaz (the Jeromy Burnitz to the Dodgers deal) and he showed promise for what, about a couple of years before he was then cast off and is now out of the game?

  45. Howie has put this game ‘in the books’ giving credit to Livan, Daniel and Jeff.

    All in all a necessary winning game, produced by this team tonight –

    Thanks to all the players …

  46. (63) Gil — Please turn your attention to this story in the context of our previous discussions about whether the Mets had enough pieces on the farm (specifically, guys like Niese and Parnell) to use in a trade for an established star (in our earlier discussion, we focused on Holliday).

    If Omar is turning this down, I think the reasoning is two-fold: 1.) It would rob him of additional organizational depth (as have the recent Santana and Putz deals) and 2.) The Wilpons are short on cash.

  47. All thise people afraid to to trade “propects” for a truw superstar. Prospect is a false name for these kids. They are suspects. Every kid is suspect and very few come close to becoming stars. Our greatest offensive suspect was Gregg Jefferies. He was the next Pete Rose. He was gonna get 4000 hits. He was just all right. No star no HoF stats. Even the dreaded dumping of Kazmir. He has done little. Can’t go deep, can’t harness his control, can’t stay healthy. The mistake wasn’t trading him the mistake was trading him for a proven mediocrity. If someone wants to give you mediocrities for your suspects you say no because your suspects will likely becoming medicreotoes in their own right. But if someone wants to give you a superstar for your suspects you say YES because your suspects are extremely unlikely to become a superstar.
    As for the Madoof excuse, if the Wilpons can’t take on slary the word would certainly go out and other teams wouldn’t be wasting their time with Omar about rich guys, just like they don’t talk to the Pirates and Twins about taking on 15-20 mil. So negating that because it is a line to placate fans longing for something better than we were close a couple times, then the offer was bogus or indeed OMAR needs to be replaced immediately. To those who say Omar wants to build his farm, well, he didn’t care for 5 years, which is certainly enough time considering you draft about 50 guys a year and sign plenty of Latinos. 5 years is enough even with FA losses and trades to have at least one guy in AAA ready to play, so that is another BS line. OMAR failed to develop a decent farm which is his proven MO as he failed to develop a farm in Montreal where he had all his draft picks and he had all those suspects coming for the talent he was dumping for salary rrasons.
    And to those who tell us that this deal wouldn’t solve the offensive flaws so how can you give up all these suspects, you’d tell us we can’t give em up if it were some offensive star because it wouldn’t fill all the holes in the rotation.
    And to thise who love small ball, remember small ball works only when you have a pitching staff that doesn’t pitch to a 5 ERA. Winning with small ball 40% of the games and having a rested pen 40% of the time allows your manager to irest his pen and have it effective to stay competitive in the rest of the games.

  48. I would make the trade in a heartbeat. Forget about this year….and just think about next year with Santana and Halliday at the top of the rotation. Like I think I read somewhere here, liken it to Arizona with Schilling and Johnson anchoring the staff. F-Mart is on his way to becoming the next Alex Escobar, Niese is projected as a number 4 starter at best, Tejada is good glove no stick, and Parnell is a one pitch pitcher. The Mets were always built on pitching, and it doesn’t come better than those top two guys.

  49. Here’s something to consider: What if the $700-million Madoff loss means that the Mets are now what’s keeping the Wilpons afloat in their other lines of business? What if the goal is now to keep the Mets profitable (i.e., not necessarily winning the pennant, but making money, nonetheless) to underwrite the losses incurred elsewhere in their empire?

  50. (67) Tiffany: I think that has always been their goal with the Mets. Don’t you remember the good ol “meaningful games” comment from a few years ago. It’s not like Freddie boy said “I want to do whatever it takes to win the World Series.” Anyway, I just wish they would be honest if it is the Madoff mess and just say it is. For guys that care so much about what the court of public opinion says, they would catch a lot less flack for not spending as much money on payroll.

  51. See all the invisible bodies in Nationals Park last night. Citi morgue will look exactly the same in a few weeks and certainly next year. You want the Wilpons to be profitable do notbhing and how much are they making in an empty park with nobody buying the food and toys and clothes and SNY ratings in the toilet? The logic of blaming Madoff is totally incorrect.

    Santana and the doctor allow you to paly the ball the Wilpons love … Dodger ball with Koufax and Drysdale, play for the run, win the game pack the park…. Wills singles, gets bunted to second,steals third, scores on a short fly ball by Willie or Tommie Davis. Koufax wins 1-0. Reyes singles, steals second, Castillo bunts him to third, scores on a short fly ball by Murphy. Holliday wins 1-0. The Wilpons have recreated the Dodgers and Met fans smile as they win the 65 World Series in ’10.

  52. (69) Harry: That would never work. The Dodgers were in Los Angeles not Brooklyn and we all know that the Wilpons only care about the Brooklyn Dodgers!

  53. 70. Steve the original Thanks for the laugh, but I think the Wilpons love all Dodgers. If they could swap teams today they’d do it!!!!!!