What’s your confidence level on the Mets making a Winter Meetings splash?

I keep hearing because of the landscape of the closer market that the Mets have the pick of the litter. The Angels, Rockies and Cubs have closers in waiting so there’s no urgency for them to bring back Francisco Rodriguez, Brian Fuentes or Kerry Wood.

We’ve seen the Mets wait – too long – in the past and come away empty. What’s your gut telling you today? Will that happen again or will Omar Minaya land a closer.

My stomach tells me he’ll bring somebody in. It doesn’t tell me, however, he’ll get a closer and rebuild the bridge.

109 thoughts on “What’s your confidence level on the Mets making a Winter Meetings splash?

  1. He’ll get a closer and get someone for said bridge. If he doesn’t, then this man really has some explaining to do.

    Everything I’ve read/heard is that the Mets FO knows that a closer will not be the cure-all, but that the entire back end of the pen needs fixing.

    I’ll say it’s K-Rod for 3 guaranteed years and a trade for someone to man the 8th.

  2. I must admit that I am confused by what is going on right now with player movement — or lack or it … and that’s not just a statement on the Mets as it seems to be happening across all of MLB.

    I expect Omar will do something next week in Las Vegas but my bet is more on a trade or two versus a free agent signing … I am hoping that he dumps Heilman, Castillo and some of the other dead wood like Schoenweis, Anderson and Castro …

    I still cannot understand why Houston Street is not a Met and Heilman/Feliciano are not Rockies. That one still royally pissses me off.

    I really thought Vazquez would be a Met but when you see what the White Sox got for him, I can understand that one … no way Omar would trade young inexpensice chips for him like the Braves did.

    Eventually something has to give … if the result of the inevitable player moves do not bring us a reconstructed bullpen void of the same old faces that caused us two lost seasons in 2007 and 2008, I will find it very difficult to fork over the money required to renew my partial season ticket plan for 2009.

  3. if they get krod for only 3 guaranteed years than it a job well done….they most definitely need hat bridge, not bringing in anyone would be unforgivable. i think a couple new faces are needed

    a deal for street to pitch the 8th seems to make a lot of sense…rumor was rockies wanted heilman and feliciano and omar said no thanks…i find that hard to believe though, i think they want more than that
    maybe heilman,evans, and lower level prospect for street?

  4. we have a bridge

    for 7/8 we have heilman and sanchez.

    after all they were good in 06.

    now all we need is krod for 3 yrs.

    last time we had the market to ourselves we got wags.

  5. Dave (#4) no offense, but if our 7/8 inning bridge is Heilman and Sanchez, then get ready for Collapse Part 3 …. they suck and need to be jettisoned out of here fast.

    “… they were good in 2006 ….” …. maybe so, but this is 2009 and after miserable seasons in 2007 and 2008, I cannot believe anywone would consider Heilman or Sanchez as viable “bridge” options from here forward.

  6. (6) Rock, I think he was being sarcastic. At least I hope so.

    I for one, am not ready to give up on Sanchez. He cannot be counted on as an integral piece, but last year was his first following surgery. He struggled in the early going, pitched well, and then struggled late.

    That may be rustiness, got in a groove, and then finally fatigue after not pitching regularly since 2006.

    Definitely worth it to keep him and see what his velocity is like come the end of ST. If he’s back throwing 93-94, it bodes well.

  7. Way too tenantive for me, just like last year all we heard was it’s early until it was late… this years slow market has justified a slow start but now things are heating up but omar isn’t….

    Either the Wilpon’s have tied the purse strings which would explain the extention after two collapses, Omar the good soldier

    Or Omar is gun shy… after two bad signings (ALou & Castillo) and three bad trades ( Bannister, Bell, Linstrom) he’s looking for the perfect signing or trade ( like Johan which was a stroke of luck) and sitting on his hands the thing is we needed more then one starter last year but the way he played it thats all we got… Now we need more then a closer but if he keeps this up thats all well get….

    Dave – I hope that was sarcasm with heilman/Sanchez for the 7th/8th

  8. (8)Ed, no one has done anything yet outside of the Vazquez deal. Next week is the winter meetings when things will pick up.

    This is because of the economy, not Minaya. It’s the same everywhere right now.

  9. Not that I wanted him, but cross another bullpen arm off the list.

    Adding right-handed bullpen depth, the Giants signed 11-year veteran Bobby Howry to a one-year contract on Wednesday.

    Howry, 35, is expected to combine with right-hander Sergio Romo, left-hander Alex Hinshaw and left-hander Jeremy Affeldt, another free-agent acquisition, to bolster San Francisco’s setup-relief corps.

    Giants relievers tied for 14th in the National League with a 4.45 ERA and allowed the third-most home runs (62), despite pitching the fourth-fewest innings (487 1/3) this past season.

  10. Affeldt, Ramirez, Nunez, Olsen, Vazquez, Hampton, Brocail

    Off the top of my head – i not saying we could have been on any of them but there is movement – look at all the offers that have been made

    Have we been linked to anything other then pliminary discussions – If i listed all the reported offeres on the table the suddenly quiet hot stove would look very busy…

    Braves are following up the Vazquez deal with a five year offer to Burnett

  11. Minaya has been like this since 2007 .. this isn’t the economy but they’ll exploit the issue – the mets have ade enough in luxury box sales to buy every player they need dont forget the 30M coming off the books

  12. (11) And there is not one of those players, outside of Vazquez, which even intrigues me. Don’t go by what the press is saying. I highly doubt Minaya is just sitting there doing nothing.

    Now, if things don’t start picking up next week or right after, then you have to start to wonder what is going on.

    As for Burnett and the Braves, let him go there for that amount. The Braves will regret that contract. Ridiculous.

  13. (12)I absolutely think the economy has something to do with it. But I also think that the SP market is frozen until CC signs, or at the very least, one of these other guys like Burnett or Lowe or Perez jumps the gun.

    Minaya, for all his faults, his playing the reliever market correctly. There are a ton of viable closers out there right now. I’m just hoping he can swing a trade for a legit guy to bridge the gap. That is what I’m concerned about.

    They’ll get a closer.

  14. Branyan, House, Miller, Howry all gone

    Were not behind the eight ball playing let them come to us – its last off season all over again- dominos falling off the board while we sit back saying wait its early

  15. Mr met

    teams and agents leak offers on purpose and they dont leak them until there actually made as to not burn bridges – multiple offers have been made to multiple players but were still in early discussions.

    Not that we had what it would take but if you wouldnt want Ramirez or Nunez then im afraid you might be with Dave on the idea of Heilman/Snachez for the 7th/8th

  16. i agree on starting pitching even the closer … but work on something else while you wait .. middle relievers, set-up man, bench, LF, catcher

  17. last year they waited all off-season for the starter they wanted and they got them – it was great but they failed to fill any other holes especially the pen. Last year was a very strong relief class- the mest failed to recognize the market and over valued the rebound of their own – specifically sanchez’s recovery and Heilman’s comeback…

  18. In principle, you guys are both correct in that he could/should be working on other facts.

    But in response to rock (19), what is Omar missing exactly? Your argument doesn’t seem to hold much water when you consider who has been signed/traded.

    Outside of Affeldt and Vazquez, did you want any of the other players? I didn’t. But I’d like to start seeing a few more items trickle in on the Mets, that is for sure.

  19. Yeah time to get nervous because so many teams are coming in and swiping up all the players. Have some patience. Omar will rebuild the pen, and get a starter. K-Rod, Street, and garland

  20. Peter Gammons has an interesting tidbit up, saying that there are so many corner OF/DH types available that there are going to be bargains.

    I think this is going to be a very interesting offseason for baseball in general. Can’t wait for it to really heat up.

  21. (21)Well that’s my point, spadanko. I am frustrated with the lack of movement, but no one else is either, so in my mind, I’m not going to freak out about it.

    Now, when players who have been linked to the Mets in some way start dropping off the board and NY still hasn’t done anything, then it’s time to complain and wonder what the hell is going on.

    But not on Dec. 3 when nothing of substance has occurred.

  22. I dont think we could have gotten them but i would have loved Nunez or Ramirez

    and i think we need a vet. leader in the pen like Bert two years ago which could have been brocail or Miller so yes players aside from affeldt and vazquez are off the board that i wanted

  23. Can we wait until Christmas before bitching that the stocking is empty?

    Ed (12) said Omar did virtually nothing since ’07, yet he added Santana, Church, and Schneider in ’08.

    And it’s easy to look at the bad trades while forgetting Benson for Maine/Julio, Julio for Duque, Seo for Sanchez, and the others that actually worked.

    I’ll make a bet right now that by Jan 1 Omar will have Ollie or a solid replacement; one of the Top 3 Closers; and a new set-up guy in the fold.

    Any takers?

  24. Ed (18) Heilman in ’07 had a 3.03 ERA, pitched in 81 games, had a 63/20 K/BB ratio. He didn’t need a “comeback” in ’08; just a repeat would’ve been fine.

  25. (23)Mrmet… wasn’t posting towards you. I was just making a general post. Us Met fans tend to overreact… a lot.. but we do have every right to

  26. bill, nothing aside from santana is what i said or meant – and I gave him the condos for that move but not addressing other issues was a major problem last year .. which if they get stuck in tunnel vision on a closer this year could happen again

  27. IMO heilman has needed out of the set-up role since after the 2006 season – ive argue it many times im not going to again – its my opinion hes not a set-up man

  28. bill metsiac(25)
    Thank you for saying something reasonable.

    ed
    btw
    Brocail sucks
    his splits are awful

  29. Mr. Met (#20) … your question of me is fair … maybe saying Omar is missing it is too strong … while in one breath I can understand his sit back and wait approach on the closer issue, I am just shocked that he would pass on Heilman + Feliciano for Street with Feliciano being the deal breaker if the reports are true.

    I like Omar …. but I was not happy with his hot-stove performance last year –of course I love the Santana move, but some of that can be atributed to the Red Sox and Yankees not pursuing him …. what else did he do? I love Church, loved the acquisition and do not fault anyone for his injuries …. Schneider, well, he is nothing special.

    He preached for years about having a solid bullpen but after 2006, he allowed it to fall into a mess.

    I will be patient and offer a grade at the completion of the semester — but next week’s winter meetings will go a long way toward figuring out exactly where Omar is heading.

  30. (31) I agree. I just want to wait, but I too would like to see some movement, only because it makes it fun.

    Too boring right now!

  31. Bill (#25) — I do not disagree, but to be clear, I ain’t bitching yet … impatient, for sure — but bitchin, no.

    As for your prediction on Omar having Ollie or a solid replacement, one of the top 3 closers and a new set-up guy in the fold, I would agree.

    What concerns me more than a little is that it may not be enough …. the LF platoon and Castillo at 2B both have disaster written all over them.

    And, a new closer + a new set-up man will also not be enough to turn the chicken crap we had in 2007 & 2008 into chicken salad in 2009.

  32. Insanity = keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different result.

    Same pen three years in a row

    Same off-season appraoch two years in a row

  33. ed
    How do you know exactly what Omar is doing.
    Ken Williams the White Sox GM was quoted as saying the internet causes many trades that might be made to get quashed.
    When rumors get out and the blog opinion is bad many GMs get nervous and back out of trades.
    Is it possible Omar is just trying to stay under the radar and is trying to work in secret.

  34. ed (34): Do you really look around with your eyes firmly shut? In one off-season he added an Ace, a RFer, and a C. How is that the “same approach” as the year before?

  35. If somebody is listening to me and making decisions, then were back to the steve phillips era of popularity rules…Williams i think likes to hear himself talk…

    i have no idea what omars doing and I hope he’s right now proving me wrong,, but I dont like the rhetoric I’m hearing about everybody except a closer back and looking for cheaper alternatives like trades and hoffman .. if last year they didnt play it so passive they would be getting a passive

    i admit I like a gun sligger GM – IMO the old omar made one bad trade the Milledge deal and not because I like milledge and did nt like Church i thought we were ok at catcher Castro/estrada and should have landed Rauch….I was wrong about Johnson, Vargas and Burgos I thought they looked good..signing I was willing to risk the money for alou bats and thought the only problem with castillo was it was one year too long….This passive sh*t drives me nuts…

    With that said I’m only disagreeing with the approach i wont be on his case until Christmas if were still in a holding pattern

    But i have faith he will get something done by then

  36. ed (34) Same pen 3 years in a row? In ’06 Omar added Sanchez, Feliciano, Mota and Wagner; in ’07, Smith, Sosa and Schoeneweis; ’08, Wise (of course you knew he’d be injured in ST, right?), Stokes and Ayala.

    But no changes.

  37. Bill – I;m screaming on the keyboard right now,,, I dont know if im wording this wrong or your toying with me …

    THE BULL PEN I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE WAY OMAR HAS HANDLE THE BULLPEN SINCE AFTER THE 2006 SEASON THE BULLPEN BULLPEN BULLPEN..

    I thought last year he should have signed another starter my pick Kyle Lohse we talked about that before and added depth to the bench I wanted Reed Johnson when the Jays cut him for example …..

    But My biggest problem was the BULLPEN WHEN I SAY HE DIDNT MAKE ANY MOVES IM TALKING ABOUT THE BULL PEN

  38. AFTER 2006 when Sanchez wasn’t returning they added nothing knew to the pen Mota came over as a waiver wire in August 2006 – Oliver and bradford were replaced by Smith and Showeneis – 2007 pen failed they relied on Smith not hitting the wall, Heilman bouncing back and Snachez recovering the only guy who came in was Wise even at his best after the collapse that wasn’t enough – this year they brought in Ayala only after wagner went down… The pen blew game 2 & 7 of the cardinal series, they collapse down the stretch in 2007 along with the rest of the team and final blew 30 saves in 2008

  39. I still feel they havent realized that the set-up role in todays game is as specialized as the closers role meaning your going to pay more for one… Successful teams have a two headed monster in the pen 8th – 9th innings. the Mets reluctance to pay more for a set-up man has resulted in they plugging in heilman and he simply can’t get it done.. they view set-up man as another middle reliever while other teams beat them out for guys like linebrink who get just below closers money

  40. last year linebrink was the head of the class in set-up men the mets didn’t even sniff that way… this year it Juan Cruz they’ve already said there not sold on him because of his inexperience ( excuse for we don’t pay that much for middle relievers)

  41. Ed (#40, 41, 42) FWIW, I agree with you 100% … Lohse and Reed Johnson are two guys I would have added … the Cruz example this year is another great example.

    If there is a plan, I don’t see it other then try to penny-pich the bullpen and hope for a diamond in the rough … if the way the bullpen has been addressed in the last two off-seasons is an indication, I fear that it will not be much better in 2009.

    Again, I am in a wait and see … but I am not thrilled with the way this has gone the past two years and concerned about the propects as we progress thru this off-season.

    Omar, please prove my concerns unfounded.

  42. Sure, in hindsight I can pick LOTS of guys for ’08. Right now, there are probably about 100 available reserves for pen/bench, including those that will be non-tendered and those available in trade.

    Go ahead—play GM and tell us who you’d target. And how much you’d be willing to pay in $$$/years.

    Then we can talk a year from now.

  43. Bill- i said this before i dont pick guys i didnt call for way before the fact of their success and I admit my mistakes …this year – i’d sign Fuentes or Hoffman and then trade for street or Jenks along with Ohman or rhodes as a lefty…

    i’d bring in either eckstien or kennedy as a utility player and Rivera as a 5th outfielder …. sign Wolf or garland to start and let several scrap heap invites compete with Niese for the fifth …

    dump heilman, schoweneis, anderson walk let carp and murphy compete for the last spot.

    same line up with RF Rivera
    bench – castro, ecstein, tatis, murphy, chavez

    rotation- santana, pelfrey, maine, garland, niese or ( scrap heap)

    pen- feliciano, smith, street (jenks), fuentes(hoffman) stokes, ohman (rhodes)

  44. (38) and all the other Minaya defenders: ok things changed a lot in 08 from 07. The Mets went up one whole game. Omar added a mediocre catcher and an average outfielder and a great starter and totally ignored the team’s biggest weakness. He ignored it in the Summer of 07, he ignored it in Winter of 07-08 and he ignored it in the summer of 08. Strike three to Omar, here’s your 4 year extension. The Wipons must have been convinced we are playing horeshores. Close sucks; its worse than finishing in last place. If you think Wise’s injury was the reason then you are basically saying every move Omar makes is awesome and only injuries are the problem. You overlook the fact that Wise sucked the second half of 07, you ignore the fact that Omar was smart NOT in thinking a guy who missed a year and a half and had unique baseball surgery would make a miraculous and instant comeback, and you overlook the fact that bringing in Schoneweis is not something to brag about. He can make a million moves but if he leaves the club with a 3rd rate pen again enjoy being eliminated on the last day of the season again.
    Maybe he’ll do something, but he has become a different man than the guy who took over the team and he has to prove he can make a team more than an almost champion team.

  45. I have 0 confidence in Omar Minaya and agree with Harry Chiti 100%. I watched the mets collaspe 2 years in a row and if you think about it, 3 years in a row because they should have beaten the cardinals. I actually have lost some respect for the mets especially when the Phillies are the World series Champions.

  46. As I’ve mentioned plenty of times, I really like Omar.
    HOWEVER, in my opinion the Milledge trade is still a head scratcher.
    The bullpen has been a quesiton mark since 2007. And he actually relied on Moises Alou, and El Duque for two seasons in a row. He also relied on Duaner Sanchez to come back from his surgery in 2008 after not pitching in a year and a half. That’s bad.
    Sure El Duque was good, sure Alou was good when he was healthy but the fact that they were a major piece to the team is poor planning and pathetic. It never should have gotten to the point where losing El Duque for the 2006 playoffs was a big deal.

    I still have faith and confidence in Omar. I think alot of the moves he makes, make sense. I think the concerning part is when he ignores certain things.

  47. Heilman

    Seriously. I think he is a good reliever. The fact that it was revealed after the season that he was hurt the whole season changes my opinion of this year.

    No he is not elite. But he is quality. I saw quite a few games where a big inning was made of a hit here, a hit there.

    If he was injured and his control was off, that could explain a lot.

    He has always gone through stretches where you dont want to see him. Then he goes through stretches where you are glad he is there.

    There was a few weeks this year where he came in and pitched multi innings of quality ball. This on a team where the whole pen goes one hitter and they are out.

    Since he was injured I dont want to throw him away. Arguably the whole pen should be replaced.

    I would keep Smith and then Sanchez and Heilman because of injuries in the hope that as healthy relievers they are part of the solution.

    If we get KRod for 3 we should grab him. We should go after Wood, take a look at Hoffman and whoever else can help.

    I am done with most of the other guys. Too many players who cant pitch an inning.

    Oh we need a long relief guy too.

  48. We need to get an OF. Preferably a RH OF. Doesnt have to be great, but a servicable player who can start or be part of a platoon.

    I want to give Murphy a chance to play, or they can have him play a different position every day.

  49. Collapse

    As I said yesterday, as frustrating as this season was, the season boiled down to Wags.

    He doesnt blow out his arm, we are in the postseason. Not that it matters. We are not good enough to play in the World Series, but we would have made the postseason.

    We have a lot of warts as a team, but down the stretch it was because we had no closer.

  50. (53) dave, I agree 100% about that RH OF, I hope the rumors of Raul Ibanez are not true as he’s LH and poor defensively, and less relevant but still worth noting, in his mid 30′s.

    I had to leave suddenly the other night in the middle of the Omar/minor leagues discussion, I’ve gone back and read what comments came after my departure and some thoughtful points were made. I still feel after all is said and done that Omar’s weakest link is “the system,” especially the higher levels. Like many of you I look forward to the development of the more recent picks. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

  51. (55) I agree with you, Grave, but the fact is the system was fairly bereft when he arrived here, and those he did trade (for Delgado, Lo Duca) really haven’t panned out, aside from Jacobs who is only a one-dimensional player. I won’t mention Santana, because not only was that a steal in my mind, it was a necessity. Couple that with his signings of Pedro and Beltran after ’04 and Wagner after ’05, that is three 1st rounders gone.

    International signings and guys drafted in ’05 and ’06 are starting to creep up, so hopefully the depth will be replenished so we’re not treated to Chris Aguila and Ramon Martinez sightings. The Mets have some fairly decent prospects beginning to creep up from the lower levels, and hopefully some pan out.

    Where Minaya has failed greatly is relying on older players. The Alou signing wasn’t a problem, but to not have a legit backup outside of Endy Chavez for a run-producing position is unwise. I wasn’t a fan of signing El Duque to a 2-year extension. One year was fine, two was stupid.

    The bullpen? He’s at fault for relying too heavily on Sanchez’s return as well as not strengthening it with some more viable options. That being said, the pen was not bad in ’07 until the end and it was mainly because the starters couldn’t last more than 5 innings. He should have added more than Matt Wise last offseason, but no one foresaw the Mets pen being this bad in ’08.

    No excuses now though. He needs to retool the entire back end of the pen. Closer and 8th inning guy. If not, he has some serious explaining and spinning to do. Neither of which I will buy.

  52. the bullpen in ’07 was obviously a problem to anyone paying attention. There was no long man, there were only 4 pitchers used with any reliability. Mota, Sconeweis and Sele were disaster from their first game, and Smith wore out in less than 2 moths. But Omar did nothing to shore it up. And all thje Minaya lovers say there were no stars on the market. He didn’t need stars. He needed a guyt for the 6th, for the 4th, for long man duties. He single handedley cost the Mets the 2007 pennant. Apologists aside, there was nobody moreto blame. Same in 08. July 31 he was too proud to bring back Bradford or get anyone else despite having a disaster part 2.
    Why is there a need to defend the failings of this guy? He built a pen when he fitst came and then decided the pen is irrelevant because he signed poison Wagner?

  53. 54 Dave: The Mets collapsed with Wagner in 2007, no telling if the same thing wouldn’t have happened again. The biggest problem with bullpens is that they can’t be trusted from year to year. The only bullpen I know of that always did the job year in year out was the Yankees pen of Mendoza/Stanton/Nelson/Rivera. Otherwise, most pens are crapshoots from year to year. As has been said before i’m sure, Minaya’s biggest failures were to think that Sanchez could make it all the way back from his injury and that Schoenweis was capable of being a “crossover” reliever. As far as the guys who have signed this year, is Bob Howry who was hated by Cub fans last year really an improvement? I would have liked to seen him sign Affeldt, but is he worth $4 mil per year? I’m not sure about that. I think that most fans are just sick of seeing the same guys that have failed the last two years, hence the frustration.

  54. 100% correct, Steve.

    Bullpens are extremely fickle, which makes it all the more difficult. And in response to Harry (57), the bullpen in 2007 had a composite ERA of 3.99, 8th in the league.

    It needs to be fixed but it was not a major problem until the final month of ’07, no matter how you spin it.

  55. 59 Mr. Met: The other problem too was their starting pitching’s inability to go at least 6 to 7 innings consistently. Maine put everyone in the pen behind the 8 ball, not to mention the myriad of 4th and 5th starters they trotted out last year. Pedro couldn’t be counted on either. That had to tire the pen and help lead to their late season meltdowns.

  56. Well metsman, you obviously, did not see that the bulpen was overburdened with only 4 guys who were being overused for the first 4-5 months. Its the problem with looking at stats vice what was happenng on the field. You don’t have depth you are bound to eventual failure. Omar didn’t do his job and all your apoogizing and making excuses for him won’t change the facts. The Mets bullpen sucked in 07 because 3 out 7 guys sucked regularly, Sele, Mota and Schoeneweis, and you friend Omar slept on it. The 3.99 ERA is irrelevant to the what the problem of that year’s pen was.

  57. (60) Steve-That was an issue as well. Not the extent it was in ’07, IMO, because Santana was good for basically 7ip/start. Perez pitched at least 6 innings in 14 straight starts over the summer too and Pelfrey became a workhorse starting in June.

    Maine, however, killed them, as did Pedro. It definitely was a factor, but a majority of the main bullpen guys were horrid from the start.

  58. (61)Harry- First off, I’m not a fan of Omar really. I’m not defending him. I’m defending the Mets bullpen.

    You say it was bad. The numbers say otherwise.

  59. 61 Harry: I think there is definitely cause/effect due to the starting rotation. The pen might have been dependable if they weren’t overworked. But either way you slice it, Omar did a poor job in not recognizing the problem…whether the pen was truly bad, or the rotation didn’t give them a chance to breathe, it falls on Omar. I don’t know how that can be disputed.

  60. Yes the Mets needed a reliever in 08.
    What was available after Wagner went down were guys who were not 8th inning guys or closers.
    Bradford would have been nice to have back but he is just a little better version of Smith.
    Maybe Omar learned from a lesson from Steve Phillips do not trade a prospect with great upside for a medicore reliver.
    I guess most of you forget trading Jason Bay to get Steve Reed.
    Mets would not have needed A LF and maybe would never have signed Alou.

  61. (65) Perfect analysis, Steve.

    Despite some fine moves during his tenure (Maine, Perez, Santana), he has dropped the ball on other aspects.

    Big winter for him.

  62. I agree Scott. In baseball, I don’t trade anyone of value for anything less than a dominant bullpen arm at the deadline.

    It’s not worth it, in my opinion at least. Seeing that no one of that ilk was moved, the rest of baseball pretty much feels the same.

  63. By the way, anyone notice the tidbit in Joel Sherman’s column/blog today? That Bradford was offered back to the Mets but they didn’t want to assume $3.5mm in salary for him.

    Probably smart, until they get who they’re looking for and then see what money is left over. Even then, though I liked Bradford, the simple fact is Joe Smith is probably a better version of him at this point when salary, performance, age are considered.

  64. 63-mrmet0805,
    Numbers are deceiving, I guess you missed all the blown relief appearances from Santana’s starts. Santana should have had 20 wins not to mention all the other games the bull pen blew during the season. If the Mets bull pen was decent they would have won the division the past two years, hell, they would have been in the world series three years ago if it wasn’t for there bull pen.

  65. And while you are 100% correct that numbers can and are deceiving, ERA has a whole for the bullpen is the name of the game.

    Individual ERAs for relievers are subjective, because guys (ahem, Schoeneweis) come in and give up runs charged to others. But a composite ERA shows that in 2007, they weren’t bad…until the latter portion of the season.

    We’re debating semantics. They need a rather extensive overhaul in the ‘pen, but this idea that the bullpen has been bad since 2006 is not true. It’s been bad for the last season and a month.

  66. tomg : We must have been watching a different team than those who claim erroneously tha the Met bullpen was Ok until late in the season. We must have been watching a different team when the great Schoeneweis sucked night after night, we must not have been watching the Mets when starting with game 51 the great Mota sucked night after night, and we must not have been watching the Mets when we couldn’t bring in a long man all the games the starters couldn’t go deep, because all we had was Aaron Sele. The bullpen was fine. We weren’t watching the Mets when a rookie with a half year in the minors was worn out becuase he had to be overused from day 1, so he sucked starting in May. It was all an illusion. The Met bullpen in 07 was fine. As a matter of fact the bullpen in 08 must have been superlative because so many of them were used everyday.
    You see the bullpen had to be great because Omar put it together. It had to be great and indeed it was. It was so good we must have missed it tomg when the mets were in the playoffs in 07 and 08 thanks to the pen and despite the horrible offense we had the last two years. I hope I TIVOd all those great performances by the Met pen. Thankyou mrmet#### for giving us the revisionist history of the last 2 years. I understand the Bushniks are looking to do the same with their failed 8 years. I’m sure they’d hire you because you have the experience they need.

  67. Wow, glad Harry decided to take this to a personal level.

    Omar Minaya is not even the issue here. I am not a fan of Minaya in particular.

    The issue was the bullpen was not as big of a problem in 2007 as people make it out to be until later in the year. You name 3 pitchers. Wagner’s nos. were good, so were Heilman’s, so were Feliciano’s.

    Mota sucked, Schoeneweis sucked and Smith struggled badly from June on.

    What you don’t seem to understand from other posts made by other people above, is the trickle down effect that the starters were not giving enough innings which is what led to guys being overworked and dead tired down the stretch.

    You need to relax Harry or whoever you are. Geez, taking it to a personal level over a baseball topic?

    Go find another hobby if you are going to berate people on a message board.

  68. Ah Scott, i love the nobody was avaialble line. Funny how teams that actually made post season play find guys to strengthen the bullpen and actually play after game 162. There just is never anyone available, maybe because the other teams made those deals??? Nah, there just isn’t anyone availalbe.
    Remember this failed GM made a statment after getting Sanatana that he had put together a championship team and it was up to the players to do it. He meant it, unfortunately he didn’t produce that team, It wasn’t that nobody was avaialable it was that Omar went to sleep because he had done his job. Obviosuly Jeffy agreed giving him is juist reward in October. Four years for 2 collpases. Don’t you wish Jeffy was your boss?

  69. Personally, I think Harry is a Yankees fan. At least he sounds like one.

    You know, where even a fun, competitive season, no matter how badly it ends, is never good enough?

    I guess Harry would prefer the Mets under Jim Duquette or the Al Harazin or Joe MacDonald years.

    LOL, what piece of work.

  70. Hey Harry, since numbers “don’t mean anything” and I’m obviously making it up, do some research.

    I did.

    Mets bullpen 2007
    1st half-3.67 ERA
    2nd half-4.40 ERA

    But I guess that just makes too much sense, considering that is what my posts above said. “Bullpen was fine for Mets until late”

    I’m not going to get into a spitting war with some guy who thinks he’s cool over the internet, but if you want to get personal, I’ll gladly prove you wrong time and time again.

  71. Hey Harry, I found even MORE numbers!

    Mets starters 2007
    Mar/Apr-3.43 ERA
    May-3.60
    June-3.98
    July-5.02
    Aug-4.95
    Sep/Oct-5.51

    See what that means? That means, oh genius Harry, that your favorite team the Yanke, er, Mets, starters got worse and worse and worse as the season wore on.

    And you know what that means? That the bullpen was used more and more and more, rendering them pitiful and tired.

    The bullpen needs re-doing. I don’t know why your panties are in a knot. Every person on this board has said so.

    The difference is not everyone agrees that the bullpen was the biggest problem UNTIL 2008 and is what needed the most attention in the offseason.

    But you obviously knew Heilman, Feliciano and Sanchez would have the worst years of their careers. All together. And that Wagner would be lost with 2 months to go.

    Keep talking Harry, I’ll just keep coming back with more and more facts to shoot you down.

  72. And please, Harry, this is too much fun, sorry folks, but he decided to take this on a personal ride, so I am going to enjoy it, but Harry, please come back and tell me how great I think Omar Minaya and the bullpen are.

    Go read each and everyone of my posts on here. I have not said that anywhere. I have said it wasn’t as bad in 2007 as people though. It was the last two months or so that overshadowed a larger body of work.

    Keep cherry-picking my posts. And by the way, I read two topics earlier a tiff you got into with metsman8669.

    I’m beginning to see what he gave you crap.

  73. Harry
    Players are always available.
    Do you mortgage you entire future to get
    mediocre role players for half a season.
    The Phillies gambled and it worked.
    They have nothing left in the system.
    The White Sox gambled last offseason made the playoffs. ( by the skin of their teeth )
    They also had nothing left in the system.
    Now they are trading vets to get younger because they see their team is not better than the Rays or Red Sox.
    I would like to believe Omar saw that the players available were not going to be worth the players he would have to give up.
    The future is not always now sometimes you do need to save chips for the future.

  74. steve
    if you have time maybe you could give a cliff notes version to mrmet0805

  75. Scott: Good points. There are people here who would’ve done an updated version of Izzy for Taylor. Or the Yankees giving up good prospects for Marte as a rental.

    Omar could’ve done that deal. Anyone sorry that he didn’t?

  76. (86) bill metsiac, I agree with you 100% on this one. The bullpen needed help, but it wasn’t worth a reprisal of Izzy/Taylor, nor was it worth bringing back an overpaid ROOGY like Bradford as someone else mentioned above.

  77. I’m sure we all agree that as of today the Mets need to overhaul the bull pen but also the Mets are going to need starting pitching and out field help. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out and how good is Omar as a GM. Has anyone noticed that the braves appear to be trying to load up on starting pitching? If Omar doesn’t watch out the Mets could be a third place team in 2009.

  78. The Braves have a lot more problems that need fixing than just adding Javier Vazquez. If they add Burnett, you’re guaranteed to hear how they’re back to being the old Braves again…except they’re not and won’t be next year either.

    That team has holes everywhere.

  79. LOL!!!

    Touche! But in all seriousness, the Braves are not nearly as settled overall as the Mets. They’re just not a very good team and getting older at key positions.

  80. So you guys think that if Omar would have gotten Bradford the team wouldn’t have won at least one more game?????? Really…..
    Well, there’s no room for discussion since Omar can do no wrong. I guess being eliminated the last day is what we hope for now.

  81. Oh look who’s back, SLOPPY! The guy who wants the Mets to have depth but in the same breath, wishes that depth was used for the Chad Bradford’s of the world.

    God.

  82. I think they want to get rid of the salary because they realize that $3.5 million is a lot to spend on a right handed middle relief pitcher who can only get right handed batters out, not needed when you already have a guy in your bullpen who does it better and cheaper in Joe Smith. Bradford was the 5th highest salary on the 2008 Rays, absurd for his limited role.

    I don’t know whether Bradford’s presence down the stretch would have resulted in one more win or not, I do know it would’ve resulted in even longer games and more dead grass between the dugout and the mound as Manuel went out to remove yet another side-specific specialist. The Mets needed a reliever last summer, yes, but not one as limited as Bradford.

  83. Bradford is a Smith clone. NO need to pay $3.5 mil so we can have two sidearming ROOGYs.

  84. tomg (88): We don’t “all agree”. I certainly don’t agree we need to push Murphy to the bench or AAA so we can shell out big bucks for an OFer.

    Yes, we need a closer, a setup guy, one or two other RPs, and at least one SP.

  85. Steve(58)

    I agree. Bullpens are fickle. Sho has been a disappointment. The team – and many here – seemed to think Sanchez would be what he was in 06. I was saying all offseason he most likely will be average and he was far less than that.

    I too was disappointed he did not get more relief help. He did get some relievers but it did not help

  86. Your right 3.5M is alot for a middle reliever….If your Tampa bay but that should be peanuts to the Mets how many games would it take in one of those, sold out luxury boxes would it take to pay pay that….

    As far as pitching Bradford is one of the best right handed relievers in the league…70 appearances in 6 of 7 years and his ERA has been under four in all but one…last year his ERA was 1.42 Tampa/ 2.45 Orioles, two years prior 2.45, 3.34 and 2.90 with the Mets

    Smith has had an ERA of 3.45 and 3.55

    bradford’s ERA has only been that high four times 2-3 yr stretch while he was battling back issues and a 3 games in the majors with a 19 ERA – in 10 years even with that 19 ERA he has a 3.24 ERA

    Smith doesnt compare yet except in delivery

    Over his career he’s pitched 505 innings in 540 appearances – while he’s know as a ROOGY he’s pretty much pitching an inning per appearance..

  87. (99) Ed- Bradford is an established vet, but the point is you cannot have two ROOGYs on one team.

    That was the Mets problem last year. They need to import guys (outside of the closer) who can get both LH/RH out. Adding another guy like Bradford when Smith, who may not be better yet, but is 11 years younger and cheaper and not to mention actually strikes guys out (Bradford-17 in 59.1, Smith-52 in 63.1).

    It’s just not a sound move for $3.5mm.

  88. Team needs established releivers – two years with too many ifs IMO, where Bradford fit Im not sure but i would much rather have him then most of the guys we’ve been running out there since he left…. No matter what the situation was he handled it 2006 bases loaded one out no problem…Same can’t be said for his replacements and he’s sont to do it since…

  89. (99) edfever, Yes Bradford’s ERA, especially with TB but even overall, was more impressive than Smith’s, no question.

    Taking a closer look: right handed batter’s stats against both are virtually the same. Vs. Bradford .255 BA, .289 OBP, .295 SLG, .585 OPS. Vs. Smith .192 BA, .286 OBP, .302 SLG, .589 OPS. That’s a .004 difference in OPS which to me makes them essentially the same guy against right handed hitters.

    Left handed batters stats against both, Bradford is better, but still bad enough that I don’t really want either in there facing a lefty. Bradford .313 BA, .380 OBP, .418 SLG, .798 OPS. Smith .320 BA, .443 OBP, .460 SLG, .903 OPS.

    Basically I’d happily have either one as a ROOGY, and I have the younger cheaper one so I’m quite pleased.

    Regarding the whole “one luxury box” theory, sure they have the money, but that doesn’t mean they should spend it on an unnecessary duplication in my opinion.

  90. Of course, if Omar got Bradford and traded Smith (no way he’d keep both), the screams of “he only likes old guys” would erupt.

    And if Bradford were Hispanic and Omar did that……….well, you know…….

  91. mrmet : you truly are a jerk. Name calling under every name. Once again, on the wrong side of a devbate, a simple question which in your pitiful mind shows that your beloved GM cost the Mets the pennant least year, so you return to the gutter. By the way, the idea of a farm is to win a pennant in July. I guess since Omar doesn’t do this, you think its bad. I guess you are the only Met fan who enjoys elimination day: Game 162. You and Omar raise the flag of elimination.

  92. Dude, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You started this.

    I was responding about the 2007 bullpen and you started insulting me. I have never insulted you before, all I said, after YOU started this with your sarcastic response, was that I could see why the other guy got into it with you.

    You take this to a personal level. I didn’t.

    YOU DID.

  93. I just figured it out.

    Not only are you Sloppy, but you also think I’m that other guy!

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Do you think I’d change my name (like you obviously did) just so I could insult under a different name? What the hell do I care if you don’t like me.

    I don’t want you to like me. You seem like a grade-A prick.

  94. And now I will insult you, just because you seem (actually you are) too stupid to see that you started this, I’ll refresh your memory:

    Me(72) And while you are 100% correct that numbers can and are deceiving, ERA has a whole for the bullpen is the name of the game.

    Individual ERAs for relievers are subjective, because guys (ahem, Schoeneweis) come in and give up runs charged to others. But a composite ERA shows that in 2007, they weren’t bad…until the latter portion of the season.

    We’re debating semantics. They need a rather extensive overhaul in the ‘pen, but this idea that the bullpen has been bad since 2006 is not true. It’s been bad for the last season and a month.

    you(73) tomg : We must have been watching a different team than those who claim erroneously tha the Met bullpen was Ok until late in the season. We must have been watching a different team when the great Schoeneweis sucked night after night, we must not have been watching the Mets when starting with game 51 the great Mota sucked night after night, and we must not have been watching the Mets when we couldn’t bring in a long man all the games the starters couldn’t go deep, because all we had was Aaron Sele. The bullpen was fine. We weren’t watching the Mets when a rookie with a half year in the minors was worn out becuase he had to be overused from day 1, so he sucked starting in May. It was all an illusion. The Met bullpen in 07 was fine. As a matter of fact the bullpen in 08 must have been superlative because so many of them were used everyday.
    You see the bullpen had to be great because Omar put it together. It had to be great and indeed it was. It was so good we must have missed it tomg when the mets were in the playoffs in 07 and 08 thanks to the pen and despite the horrible offense we had the last two years. I hope I TIVOd all those great performances by the Met pen. Thankyou mrmet#### for giving us the revisionist history of the last 2 years. I understand the Bushniks are looking to do the same with their failed 8 years. I’m sure they’d hire you because you have the experience they need.

    Yep…I started it with my rude post.

    Do everyone a favor and the f**k out of here.

  95. ed(94); Exactly, the O’s were just dumping.
    bill (96) The point with Bradford is that there were no pitchers who can get outs the last 2 months. Bradford gets outs.
    And say you think Bradford is too costly, salary wise; at the end of the year you would have had optin of dealing him or Smith. Gee what would the Mets do with options and a little depth? And if he is too costly, in Minaya’s mind, don’t expect much of a pen, because the first two signings this Winter were for more.
    bill (103) In regards to age, Bradford is 34,, his contract would end at 35, not 40, and if Omar took the Mets past game 162, the screams would die quickly.
    July 31 2008, I think the Met fandom would have accepted any average ar in the pen…. especially when it would have been for a guy whom was well liked by the fans, produced well in NY and doesn’t get hurt throwing underhand, and can’t lose his fastball because he never had one.
    Fact is, Minaya blew the season, and you only get so many chances, and you can’t let them slip away without a fight, which he failed to do.

  96. We have to have depth guys!!! DEPTH!

    You know how you do that? By dealing away minor league players for Chad Bradford!! Or dumping top prospects for Damaso Marte! Or how about Eric Gagne in 2007?

    You’re an idiot, Harry.

    See, now I AM insulting you.